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Where Heaven Came From one of the discourses on Aristotle

#1 User is offline   AmyLong 

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 03:06 PM

Has anyone gotten up to the discourse about Aristotle? I thought it was very interesting to note that he was the one who came up with the idea of heaven. The bible doesn't exactly say heaven and there's no mention of pearly gates or anything else of the sort, but yet there it is in Chritianity, so it had to come from somewhere.

I'm really enjoying the way the arguments in favor of faith are made.

Anyone find any points of discussion so far?

--Amy
I have been ordained through the Universal Life Church , and I post spiritual articles at ULC and at the Universal Life Church Seminary course listings. I'm also a martial artist and I teach Sacramento Martial Arts. I support the Universal Life Church Article Directory, and have blogs that contain ULC Seminary Essays and Wedding Ceremonies.
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Posted 02 April 2005 - 07:36 PM

AmyLong, on Oct 14 2004, 03:06 PM, said:

Has anyone gotten up to the discourse about Aristotle? I thought it was very interesting to note that he was the one who came up with the idea of heaven. The bible doesn't exactly say heaven and there's no mention of pearly gates or anything else of the sort, but yet there it is in Chritianity, so it had to come from somewhere.

I'm really enjoying the way the arguments in favor of faith are made.

Anyone find any points of discussion so far?

--Amy

Early Assyrian writings speak of a place where people go after death and reside in the presence of dieties. The pagen beliefs were geared more to pleasing the diety(s) in any manner acceptable to them. Hammurabi was the first credited with codifing the laws, but it was not untill the ten commandments appeared that specific rules were required to be adjered to in order to abide for eternity with God. The early Greek philosophers were not mono-theistic and simplistically stating, they believed at death-you gotto go somehwere, so it was heaven or crossing of the river Styx.
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#3 User is offline   craigplurie 

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 02:29 PM

I have a copy of Aristotle The Metaphysics from 1999.
I found the book most enjoyable. I think he was on of Plato's finest pupils
even if they did not get along. I feel once our mortal coil is shed our spirt does endure.

Be well!!

Craig
SANCTUS, Sanctus, Sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth. Pleni sunt caeli et terra gloria tua. Hosanna in excelsis. Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini. Hosanna in excelsis.

Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts. Heaven and earth are full of thy glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.
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Posted 04 July 2005 - 07:44 PM

RE: Heaven
Referenced:
From - Highway to Heaven
Part 1 Early Hindu Belief

"If we take the Vedas as our reference point to study the evolution of the concept of heaven...,we find that although the 1st Book (of the Vedas) that the term gets some import. While Book I of the Rig Veda in a hymn mentions:
..pious sacrificers enjoy residence in the heaven on Indra. Book VI in a special invocation to the fire God appeals to 'lead men to heaven'. ...By common consensus it (heaven) was situated somewhere up there^, and it was Indra who reigned in heaven...
In the mythical tale of Mudgala and Rishi Durvasa, we have a detailed description of the heavens (Sanskrit "swarga"). While the 2 men were in conversation about the virtues and heaven, a celestial messenger appears in his heavenly vehicle to take Mudgala to this heavenly Abode. (sounds Like Ezechial or is it Isaiah(?) story in OT). The messenger gives an explicit account of heaven.

"The heaven is well provided with excellent paths. .....(many different peoples) .....dwell there. There are many celestial gardens. Here are sport persons of meritorious acts. Neither hunger nor thirst, nor heat , nor cold, neither grief, nor fatigue, neither labor nor repentance, nor fear, nor anything that is disgusting and inauspicious; none of these is to be found in heaven. There is no age either...delightful fragrance is everywhere. Delightful sounds captivate both the ear and the mind. These worlds are obtained by meritous acts and not by birth nor by the merits of fathers and mothers...There is neither sweat nor stench nor excretion nor urine... The dust does not soil one's clothes. There is no uncleaniness of any kind. Garlands (made from flowers) do not fade. Excellent garments full of celestial fragrance never fade. There are countless celestial cars that move in the air. The dwellers are free from envy, ignorance and malice. They live very happily..."

:nw:

Bless All
Rev Elizabeth
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#5 User is offline   j.j.salt 

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Posted 08 July 2005 - 11:19 PM

Greetings,

If not for Rev. Elizabeth's post, I was going to comment myself that the idea of "Heaven" was firmly esconced in some sects of Hinduism many centuries before the books of even the Old Testament were evolving, and millenia before Aristotle.

It has been my experience that there are few theological ideas that cannot be said to have first been expressed in Hinduism, which is a testament to the vast age, the longevity, and the breadth and depth of that faith.

And no, I don't consider myself a Hindu, although that is one of the faiths that has been a significant influence on my own theological perspective. At this point in my development, though, I find myself jettisoning, as much as possible, all forms of dogma in favor of what I have directly experienced, and in turn to further that experience I have to divest myself of dogma. As a reward or destination after death, the concept of heaven has little interest for me. As a state of mind that I can attain in the here and now, the concept fascinates me.

As St. Catherine of Siena put it, all the way to heaven, is heaven.

In Unity,
j.j.salt
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Posted 10 July 2005 - 06:28 AM

:thmup: As we say in Australia. "strewth"

Amy you are awesome

This has made me think about something that I never before associated with Aristotle
and yet I should have done so

thank you for this wonderful insight
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#7 Guest_godblessedrob_*

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Post icon  Posted 22 July 2005 - 05:08 PM

Hello Amy
Heaven is mentioned in The Bible many times. Look at Genesis 14:19 "...and he blessed Abram, saying, 'Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth." (for example).

Gates are mentioned too. Look at John 10:9 "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture."

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Psalms 100:4
"Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise; give thanks to him and praise his name."

Both gate and heaven:
Mathew 16:17-19
"Jesus replied, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'"

Before there was a form of writting, history was passed on from generation to generation. So history from the beginning is recorded in Genesis and the first verse of The Bible says:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Aristotle was a wise man but he was born after the old and new testaments were inspired.
In His Love,
Rev Rob
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#8 User is offline   j.j.salt 

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 10:46 PM

Warm Greetings, All,

Quote

Aristotle was a wise man but he was born after the old and new testaments were inspired.


Not to be too picky, but Aristotle lived from 384 to 322 BC. The last of the books of the Old Testament may have all been set down before his birth, although some scholars place the last of the Old Testament texts in time frames that are approximately contemporaneous with Aristotle. But more critically, Jesus did not arrive until more than three centuries after Aristotle's death, and the earliest books of what we know as the New Testament could not have been set down until after Jesus' death, most probably many decades afterward.

The Bible is indeed a wonderful book, and I wish more Christians were familiar with the text, rather than the preachings that evolved many centuries after the origin of the Bible and Christianity. But great as it is, it is not the only source of wisdom in this universe.

In Unity,
j.j.salt
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Post icon  Posted 24 July 2005 - 09:39 AM

The old testament is considered the announcement of Christ and new testament the fullfilment of the prophecy, if anybody wants to be technical. The Bible is composed of many books.
But the fact and subject is that heaven and gates were already taken when Aristotle was born.
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Posted 08 January 2006 - 11:30 AM

One has to remember, especially when reading the King James Version, that the language used is not modern English. When the Elizabethans said "heaven", or "heavens", they literally meant "the sky" or "in the sky".
As far as the Greek version of the afterlife, it wasn't what we would call paradise. You basically hung around until you had forgotten your mortal life. What was supposed to happen after that, I'm not quite sure.

Do What Thou Wilt...with Love.
Jac Martins
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#11 User is offline   rev mark 

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 07:26 PM

(hope this is the right place).
in buddhism,which predates aristotle,heaven is a state of mind(nirvana)not a place to go after death.same is true for hell.the only reference i can find to explain this comes from the dhammapada(at the end of chapter 15):"happiness and suffering come from your own mind,not from the outside.your own mind is the cause of happiness;your own mind is the cause of suffering.to obtain happiness and pacify suffering,you have to work within your own mind."(lama zopa rinpoche)














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Posted 15 January 2006 - 03:02 PM

OK...so i'm not really good with the quote thing...and when i tried to do a quote, i didn't get anywhere, i'll just insert the quote and credit for it myself...

The old testament is considered the announcement of Christ and new testament the fullfilment of the prophecy, if anybody wants to be technical. The Bible is composed of many books.
But the fact and subject is that heaven and gates were already taken when Aristotle was born.

posted by godblessedrob above.

the old testament is considered the announcement of Christ and new testament the fulfillment of the prophecy, BY SOME...if you really want to be technical. this is NOT considered to be true by many faiths, the jewish faith comes to mind here...and that, too, is older than christianity.

and to go a little further back in the thread, you also make reference to many quotes about "gates." the thing is...we're talking about "the pearly gates" as being the entrance to heaven here...and not just about the word "gate" itself. i think we're all willing to admit that the word "gate" existed before Aristotle. we are talking about the concept of the "pearly gates" as the entrance to heaven...not merely the word "gate" being used in the bible.

and the post regarding the language and consequent translations is a very important one...this has been translated as heaven, and our current concept of what that may be is based on that interpretation. i can't recall who made that post...but it was right on target.
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Posted 21 February 2006 - 10:01 AM

View PostAmyLong, on Oct 14 2004, 01:06 PM, said:

Has anyone gotten up to the discourse about Aristotle? I thought it was very interesting to note that he was the one who came up with the idea of heaven. The bible doesn't exactly say heaven and there's no mention of pearly gates or anything else of the sort, but yet there it is in Chritianity, so it had to come from somewhere.

I'm really enjoying the way the arguments in favor of faith are made.

Anyone find any points of discussion so far?

--Amy


I am not a student of the seminary, and have not read the text mentioned.
However, there is some debate if there was ever any such person as Aristotle at all.
Some have suggested that he was a creation of the 2nd or 3rd century AD and that all the writtings attributed to him were forgeries.

The "Old Testament" is rife with references to Heaven, and there is mentioned the abode of God as being a place above and apart from the world of men in the book of Job.

Quote

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.


the pearly gates are derived from the following passages

Quote

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
<---snip--->
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.


So, we can see here that there IS mention of Heaven and the "gates of pearl" or "pearly gates"
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#14 User is offline   rev mark 

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 03:21 PM

(good to see you again john)

if i remember the old testament,while heaven is mentioned,my understanding is that according to jewish belief,no one went there when they died.instead they went to shoel to await judgement.not entirely accurate the way i said it,but my brief understanding.and before you say it,while there is at least one story of someone being taken up,it never said anyone went to a place called heaven.
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Posted 22 February 2006 - 08:06 PM

View Postrev mark, on Feb 22 2006, 01:21 PM, said:

(good to see you again john)

if i remember the old testament,while heaven is mentioned,my understanding is that according to jewish belief,no one went there when they died.instead they went to shoel to await judgement.not entirely accurate the way i said it,but my brief understanding.and before you say it,while there is at least one story of someone being taken up,it never said anyone went to a place called heaven.


its nice to be here Mark, thanks

the Book of Enoch, which is generally not thought of as canonical, contains 1st person descriptions of the place we know as "Heaven".
Enoch is mentioned, in passing, in the book of Genisis, and it seems that he had a very unique relationship to the Almighty.

Quote

Ge 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Ge 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Ge 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

the only other reference of which i know that makes mention of a person being taken up into the heavens is

Quote

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2Ki 2:12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

Now, it seems to me that the NAME we give to the abode of God is a mere cultural thing...and that there is mention all through the Old Testament of the abode of God as being apart from the abode of men, and for lack of a better term in modern English we call that place "Heaven"
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#16 User is offline   rev mark 

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 12:34 PM

and again john,it says the heavens;which from my very limited knowledge of greek and hebrew,refers to the sky.if memory serves me correctly,king james is the one who refers to it as a place.

enoch according to the story didn't die(at least as we understand death),but was taken.it doesn't happen to say where.
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Posted 24 February 2006 - 08:40 AM

I did an online search of several references that have the hellenic languages available and the conclusion I drew was that the original hebrew was used to reference "a lofty place" "the sky" "a high abode" and several other conotations... This occurs in several different translations of the Holy Bible not only the King James but the Amlified where the (according to the translators) the most original texts available were used all of which must be taken in context of the words around them.
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#18 User is offline   ipitimiseo 

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 04:51 AM

I'm gonna do some research about this topic for sure.



http://www.ipitimi.com
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#19 User is offline   psg vestments 

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 09:13 PM

e thought of devotees of Jesus getting the opportunity to go along with him in paradise after biting the dust presumably didn't come to fruition until around a half-century after Jesus kicked the bucket. Undoubtedly, Jesus' devotees accepted from at an opportune time that the dedicated would be admitted to the "Kingdom of Heaven," as the New Testament calls it. However, "Kingdom of Heaven" is only Matthew's equivalent word for what a prior Gospel, Mark, had called the "Kingdom of God." And this kingdom was going to exist on Earth, when God corrected history's numerous wrongs by building up an enduringly simply run the show.

The Gospel of Luke, composed around 80 or 90 CE, a large portion of a century after the torturous killing, offers the New Testament's soonest clear desire of a remunerating eternity upon death. Luke says that the godfearing criminal holding tight the cross beside Christ will end up in "heaven" nearby Christ that very day. Luke likewise recounts an anecdote about the hereafters of a rich man and a poor man. The rich man, who kicked the bucket without atoning his wrongdoings, goes to a part of the underworld where, he watches, "I am in distress in these flares." The poor man has better good fortune. He winds up in the organization of Abraham—maybe, as some have contended, in paradise, be that as it may, in any event, in a more accommodating part of the underworld: somewhere where "he is support".

A few researchers battle that this thought of quick reward for the Christian dead does a reversal to Christ himself—who, all things considered, is the person who in Luke makes these two references to life following death. However neither one of the references is found in the most punctual gospel, Mark, or in the sooner than-Luke "Q source" (the conjectured wellspring of stories shared by Luke and Matthew).

What brought about this movement in desires when Luke was composed? First and foremost, as the decades moved by and the evidently up and coming Kingdom of God neglected to appear, there was developing worry among Jesus' supporters over the condition of the not-yet-restored dead. The Apostle Paul, composing around two decades after Jesus' demise, had consoled adherents that as of late left family and companions of devotees would join "whatever remains of us" in the Kingdom once the Kingdom came. Be that as it may, when of Luke, over 10 years after Paul's demise, seeks after the Kingdom's close term landing had darkened.

Presently the mindful Christian was concerned not just about whether dead companions and relatives would in the end be restored however about what demise would feel like until restoration—since it progressively looked as though the Christian being referred to would join his or her companions and relatives in that state before Judgment Day.

Had Christian regulation not advanced in light of this test, it would have lost validity as the Kingdom of God neglected to appear on Earth—as eras and eras of Christians were seen to have passed on without getting their prize. So the Kingdom of God must be moved from Earth to paradise, where eras of Christians had apparently gotten their prize—and you could, as well, in the event that you acknowledged Christ as your hero.

Why is it Luke, not the generally contemporary Matthew, who makes this turn? Perhaps in light of the fact that Luke is a more "gentile" gospel. While Matthew frequently is by all accounts attempting to change over sincere Jews to the Jesus development, focusing on its similarity with customary Judaism, Luke is centered around winning "agnostic" believers. What's more, in the event that he is going to contend with agnostic religions, he would be wise to ensure that Christianity can coordinate their most prominent components.

Furthermore, one of those elements was an euphoric existence in the wake of death. In spite of the fact that the official divine forces of the Roman state offered no such thing, the realm had been attacked by remote religions that, by filling this void, had won followings. These religions of salvation went under an assortment of brands. Persian cliques discussed souls moving through the planetary circles to heaven, and Greek factions offered delight in Hades, the Greek underworld that had once offered just an unexceptional presence for the normal soul yet now included lavish subdivisions. Numerous opponents of Christianity appear to have been flourishing to some extent by offering unceasing ecstasy.

Am I saying that Luke stole his life following death situation from a contending religion? Not with extraordinary certainty, no. Be that as it may, on the off chance that you needed to arraign him on this charge, you would not be completely ailing in confirmation. The confirmation would concentrate on the Egyptian God Osiris. Osiris looks somewhat like Jesus as Christians would later come to consider him; Osiris occupied the afterworld and judged the as of late expired, allowing unceasing life to the individuals who trusted in him and lived by his code. In any case, Osiris was doing this quite a while before Jesus was conceived, and in the interim he had relocated to the Roman Empire, where he had built up a taking after.

Surely that story in Luke about the rich man and the poor man in Hades has Osirian hints. At the time Luke was composing, a composed duplicate of an Egyptian tale about existence in the wake of death was flowing in the Roman Empire. It was around a rich man and a poor man who kick the bucket and go to the underworld. Both are judged at the court of Osiris.
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