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Lesson 1 History

#1 User is offline   dsurvivor 

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 01:41 PM

A good start :biggrinthumb:. The instructor gives a history of paganism/wiccan from a different perspective and more objective than I excpected. Well done! I was also glad to see the treatment of the Wiccan movement of the last couple of centuries. The instructor points out the bogus as well as the good. One of the sad facts of the history of paganism and Wiccan is the lack of written records by the original practitioners.
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#2 User is offline   rev mark 

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 07:56 PM

sorry to say this,but the christian church of the time did 2 things.one was adapt the rituals of paganism and wicca,and the other was destroy any evidence they could find,including the practitioners.while i am not aware of any burning of witches(or people lumped under that heading)in the us,i do now that drowning was a popular form of execution.

also,there is some arguement(very heated at times)that wicca was started by gardiner.ther are those who argue it is only one type,while others point to say that is how old wicca is.me,i don't know.
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#3 User is offline   dsurvivor 

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 10:14 AM

View Postrev mark, on Oct 1 2009, 08:56 PM, said:

sorry to say this,but the christian church of the time did 2 things.one was adapt the rituals of paganism and wicca,and the other was destroy any evidence they could find,including the practitioners.while i am not aware of any burning of witches(or people lumped under that heading)in the us,i do now that drowning was a popular form of execution.

also,there is some arguement(very heated at times)that wicca was started by gardiner.ther are those who argue it is only one type,while others point to say that is how old wicca is.me,i don't know.


I will disagree with the "Christian Church" destroying the evidence. It was the Roman Empire that did it. Some of the Catholic Bishops spoke against it but the majority remained silent. The Orthodox Church, in my study of it, took the approach of tolerance of the pagans hoping that God's grace would change hearts.

As far as the adoption of pagan practices...there is a lot of truth in that. It was mostly the Catholic Church that did so for a couple of reasons. One was a way of assimilation of the local people they attempted to "evangelize". I have read the book "Pagan Christianity" which sheds a lot of lot on this.
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#4 User is offline   rev mark 

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 05:38 PM

while i did say"christian church of the time",i am very glad to see your answer.it shows more indepth study than was apparent in your first answer.

thank you
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#5 User is offline   JP 

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Post icon  Posted 29 October 2009 - 01:30 PM

Greetings!

Judgement calls are often at the mercy of perspective. While the Orthodox Church, to use your terminology, may profess that they took a tolerant approach, I think that you will find that the historical record is not so kind. I would refer you to a book entitled "The Celts" by Nora Chadwick in the chapter entitled "Christianity" for starters. Tactics such as the seizing of assets, the building of new churches on top of older pagan structures, and lest we forget, the Inquisition all played a prominent role in changing the religious face of Europe. Remember, it was the rulers who embraced Christianity before the people and co-opting was used as a religious bait-and-switch: what was the Goddess Brighid became Saint Brigid, Imbolc/Oimelc became Candlemas, the Vernal Equinox became Easter (first Sunday after the first Full Moon after the Equinox), Lughnasadh became the Assumption, Samhain became All Saint's Day, Winter Solstice became Christmas, and the list goes on and on.

Tolerance? I do not agree. May I quote from Pope John Paul II in Tertio Millennio Adveniente, Section 35, in which he states definitely and ex cathedra 35 "Another painful chapter of history to which the sons and daughters of the Church must return with a spirit of repentance is that of the acquiescence given, especially in certain centuries, to intolerance and even the use of violence in the service of truth." Even here, the leader of the Roman Catholic Church apologises for "intolerance". :pope:

"The use of violence in the service of the truth" - I think that says it all

Yours in the Way,

JP :no!:
JP
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#6 User is offline   Kevin 

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 04:56 PM

Hi all,

I must disagree with dsurvivor- the Roman empire was extremely tolerant of all religions, as long as the conquered people paid a certain amount of tribute to the State Pantheon of Rome. In fact, many of the Roman soldiers adopted certain Gods and Goddesses of the conquered areas- Epona from Gaul, for example. The Roman Catholic Church (in later years, after the fall of the Empire) has quite a history of destroying all sorts of Pagan artifacts, temples, etc. In more modern times, the Inquisition and the various Crusades are another example of this same nefarious activity. The infamous Salem Witch Trials are another; although ironically no actual witches were killed- only Christians accused of Witchcraft.

JP is quite correct about the building of Christian churches on top of older Pagan holy ground. Ireland, for example, is full of them. The church of St. Patrick at Tara is one that comes to mind.

The Christians did a lot of adaptation of Pagan ritual and customs- but not Wicca. Wicca is only 60 years old, give or take. There were many indigenous spiritualities that may have been included in the adaptations, but not Wicca. This is not to detract from the validity of Wicca, just to clarify its age.

I have quite a list of references, if anyone would like them.

Triple blessings,

Kevin
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#7 User is offline   Myrrdynlok 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:23 PM

View PostKevin, on Oct 29 2009, 03:56 PM, said:

Hi all,

I must disagree with dsurvivor- the Roman empire was extremely tolerant of all religions, as long as the conquered people paid a certain amount of tribute to the State Pantheon of Rome. In fact, many of the Roman soldiers adopted certain Gods and Goddesses of the conquered areas- Epona from Gaul, for example. The Roman Catholic Church (in later years, after the fall of the Empire) has quite a history of destroying all sorts of Pagan artifacts, temples, etc. In more modern times, the Inquisition and the various Crusades are another example of this same nefarious activity. The infamous Salem Witch Trials are another; although ironically no actual witches were killed- only Christians accused of Witchcraft.

JP is quite correct about the building of Christian churches on top of older Pagan holy ground. Ireland, for example, is full of them. The church of St. Patrick at Tara is one that comes to mind.

The Christians did a lot of adaptation of Pagan ritual and customs- but not Wicca. Wicca is only 60 years old, give or take. There were many indigenous spiritualities that may have been included in the adaptations, but not Wicca. This is not to detract from the validity of Wicca, just to clarify its age.

I have quite a list of references, if anyone would like them.

Triple blessings,

Kevin



Nice job Kevin. To add to this a bit, I will say that in my research over the last 10 years or so I have found more evidence supporting Kevin's theory about the Roman Catholic Church being the main "instigators" or "antagonists" of the persecutions.

Both JP and Kevin are correct in stating that the Christians did adopt * arguably* all of the Pagan rituals and customs, even down to almost every aspect of the story of Jesus which they "stole" from the ancient histories of the Egyptian god Horus. (see here for comparison of Jesus vs Horus) What I really wanted to add about this post is that the Pagans weren't without "retaliation" when the Christians made them tear down their temples and re-build Christian temples on top of them. The Pagans, being the "workers" , the ones who were actually forced to build these "false temples" often would carve or add in some way the symbols of their various traditions so they could still worship their own way while being forced to attend Christian ceremonies.

I hope this reply was of some interest to everyone! That comparison of Horus and Jesus is VERY interesting food for thought. Check it out!

Bright Blessings!

Myrrdynlok
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#8 User is offline   dsurvivor 

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:09 AM

Rome had it periods of religious intolerance. The Christians were persecuted for about 3 centuries. In general, Rome was tolerant as long as the emperor was worshiped as a god. In the history of the druids in Celtic lands there was a political split in the druid religious leaders about the time Christianity came to Ireland. A large number of the bards joined the church (many of whom became monks). As far as the Jesus-Horus connection, I don't agree. Note the following link: http://www.kingdavid...JesusHorus.html.
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#9 User is offline   Myrrdynlok 

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 07:10 PM

View Postdsurvivor, on Feb 11 2010, 10:09 AM, said:

Rome had it periods of religious intolerance. The Christians were persecuted for about 3 centuries. In general, Rome was tolerant as long as the emperor was worshiped as a god. In the history of the druids in Celtic lands there was a political split in the druid religious leaders about the time Christianity came to Ireland. A large number of the bards joined the church (many of whom became monks). As far as the Jesus-Horus connection, I don't agree. Note the following link: http://www.kingdavid...JesusHorus.html.



You are absolutely correct. Rome certainly did have it's own struggles with religious intolerance. Jesus-Horus, like I said interesting food for thought. Even if it isn't exactly true, (I previously said they "stole" the story for Jesus, an exaggeration), the are too many similarities not to be mentioned. As a Wiccan who does not believe that Jesus was the "actual Son of God", or any more "divine" than anyone else, it raised my eyebrows a bit when I stumbled across the theory in my research of this lesson. Thank you for your wonderful insight.
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#10 User is offline   arnoldchphilip 

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:36 PM

Kevin can you send the to me .. as I m in search of the stuff of this kind.. Hope I get it sooner or later..!!

Thanks,
Arnold.

.
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